They found a tiny chalice this big, dated to the second century BC. Thank you. So it wasn't just a random place to find one of these spiked wines. Read more 37 people found this helpful Helpful Report abuse Tfsiebs So much research! And there are legitimate scholars out there who say, because John wanted to paint Jesus in the light of Dionysus, present him as the second coming of this pagan God. I really tried. It's not the case in the second century. Where are the drugs? I include that line for a reason. And by the way, I'm not here trying to protect Christianity from the evidence of psychedelic use. . So I have my concerns about what's about to happen in Oregon and the regulation of psilocybin for therapeutic purposes. I'll invite him to think about the future of religion in light of all this. CHARLES STANG: OK. So here's a question for you. It seems entirely believable to me that we have a potion maker active near Pompeii. So you were unable to test the vessels on site in Eleusis, which is what led you to, if I have this argument right, to Greek colonies around the Mediterranean. BRIAN MURARESKU: I'm bringing more illumination. We have plays like the Bacchi from Euripides, where we can piece together some of this. Please materialize. It's some kind of wine-based concoction, some kind of something that is throwing these people into ecstasy. And at some point in my narrative, I do include mention of Gobekli Tepe, for example, which is essentially twice the age of Stonehenge. But what we do know is that their sacrament was wine and we know a bit more about the wine of antiquity, ancient Greek wine, than we can piece together from these nocturnal celebrations. There's John Marco Allegro claiming that there was no Jesus, and this was just one big amanita muscaria cult. And I'll just list them out quickly. If you die before you die, you won't die when you die. I mean, that's obviously the big question, and what that means for the future of medicine and religion and society at large. And I think that we would behoove ourselves to incorporate, resuscitate, maybe, some of those techniques that seem to have been employed by the Greeks at Eleusis or by the Dionysians or some of these earliest Christians. Brought to you by Wealthfront high-yield savings account, Peloton Row premium rower for an efficient workout, and You Need A Budget cult-favorite money management app.. Rick Rubin is a nine-time GRAMMY-winning producer, one of Time magazine's 100 most influential people in the world, and the most successful producer in any genre, according to Rolling Stone. Others would argue that they are perfectly legal sacraments, at least in the Native American church with the use of peyote, or in the UDV or Santo Daime, I mean, ayahuasca does work in some syncretic Christian form, right? So perhaps there's even more evidence. And maybe in these near-death experiences we begin to actually experience that at a visceral level. According to Muraresku, this work, which "presents the pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist," addresses two fundamental questions: "Before the rise of Christianity, did the Ancient Greeks consume a secret psychedelic sacrament during their most famous and well-attended religious rituals? The divine personage in whom this cult centered was the Magna Mater Deum who was conceived as the source of all life as well as the personification of all the powers of nature.\[Footnote:] Willoughby, Pagan Regeneration, p. 114.\ 7 She was the "Great Mother" not only "of all the gods," but of all men" as well. You take a board corporate finance attorney, you add in lots of childhood hours watching Indiana Jones, lots of law school hours reading Dan Brown, you put it all together and out pops The Immortality Key. And what we know about the wine of the time is that it was prized amongst other things not for its alcoholic content, but for its ability to induce madness. And so if there is a place for psychedelics, I would think it would be in one of those sacred containers within monastic life, or pilgrims who visit one of these monastic centers, for example. You mentioned, too, early churchmen, experts in heresies by the name of Irenaeus of Lyons and Hippolytus of Rome. He dared to ask this very question before the hypothesis that this Eleusinian sacrament was indeed a psychedelic, and am I right that it was Ruck's hypothesis that set you down this path all those many years ago at Brown? That is about the future rather than the ancient history. The book proposes a history of religious ritualistic psychedelic use at least as old as the ancient Greek mystery religions, especially those starting in Eleusis and dating to roughly 2,000 BC. . But it was not far from a well-known colony in [INAUDIBLE] that was founded by Phocians. So the big question is, what kind of drug was this, if it was a drug? We have other textual evidence. So the event happens, when all the wines run out, here comes Jesus, who's referred to in the Gospels as an [SPEAKING GREEK] in Greek, a drunkard. BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. And keep in mind that we'll drop down into any one of these points more deeply. I wish the church fathers were better botanists and would rail against the specific pharmacopeia. I wonder if you're familiar with Wouter Hanegraaff at the University of Amsterdam. And as a lawyer, I know what is probative and what's circumstantial evidence, and I just-- I don't see it there. These-- that-- Christians are spread out throughout the eastern Mediterranean, and there are many, many pockets of people practicing what we might call, let's just call it Christian mysticism of some kind. Then I see the mysteries of Dionysus as kind of the Burning Man or the Woodstock of the ancient world. So somewhere between 1% and 49%. I know that's another loaded phrase. Here's another one. Now, here's-- let's tack away from hard, scientific, archaeobotanical evidence for a moment. And all we know-- I mean, we can't decipher sequence by sequence what was happening. Its proponents maintain that the affable, plump old fellow associated with Christmas derives from the character of Arctic medical practitioners. It was a pilgrimage site. There were formula. I mean, I wish it were easier. It is my great pleasure to welcome Brian Muraresku to the Center. So, although, I mean, and that actually, I'd like to come back to that, the notion of the, that not just the pagan continuity hypothesis, but the mystery continuity hypothesis through the Vatican. So the closer we get to the modern period, we're starting to find beer, wine mixed with interesting things. I was satisfied with I give Brian Muraresku an "A" for enthusiasm, but I gave his book 2 stars. 7:30 The three pillars to the work: the Eucharist as a continuation of the pharmako and Dionysian mysteries; the Pagan continuity theory; and the idea that through the mysteries "We can die before we die so that when we die we do not die" 13:00 What does "blood of Christ" actually mean; the implied and literal cannibalism CHARLES STANG: We've really read Jesus through the lens of his Greek inheritors. So. Let's move to early Christian. Brian's thesis, that of the Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, was explored by Alexander Hislop in his "The Two Babylons", 1853, as a Protestant treatise in the spirit of Martin Luther as Alexander too interjects the Elusinian Mysteries. Do the drugs, Dr. Stang? Again, it's proof of concept for going back to Eleusis and going back to other sites around the Mediterranean and continuing to test, whether for ergotized beer or other things. And what, if any, was the relationship between those ancient Greeks and the real religion of the earliest Christians, who might call the paleo-Christians. Because they talk about everything else that they take issue with. You may have already noticed one such question-- not too hard. That's because Brian and I have become friends these past several months, and I'll have more to say about that in a moment. He calls it a drug against grief in Greek, [SPEAKING GREEK]. So let's start with one that is more contemporary. A rebirth into a new conception of the self, the self's relationship to things that are hard to define, like God. Which, again, what I see are small groups of people getting together to commune with the dead. I am excited . It's really quite simple, Charlie. Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of " tikkun olam "repairing and improving These two accuse one Gnostic teacher named Marcus-- who is himself a student of the famous theologian Valentinus-- they accuse him of dabbling in pharmacological devilry. Let me just pull up my notes here. I'd never thought before about how Christianity developed as an organized religion in the centuries after Jesus' murder. And how can you reasonably expect the church to recognize a psychedelic Eucharist? But please do know that we will forward all these questions to Brian so he will know the sorts of questions his work prompts. Copyright 2023 President and Fellows of Harvard College. Yeah. Psychedelics Today: Mark Plotkin - Bio-Cultural Conservation of the Amazon. Then there's what were the earliest Christians doing with the Eucharist. They were mixed or fortified. The same Rome that circumstantially shows up, and south of Rome, where Constantine would build his basilicas in Naples and Capua later on. I write it cognizant of the fact that the Eucharist doesn't work for many, many people. CHARLES STANG: All right. It's not just Cana. And according to Wasson, Hofmann, and Ruck, that barley was really a code word. This is true. And I hear-- I sense that narrative in your book. But what I see are potential and possibilities and things worthy of discussions like this. What is it about that formula that captures for you the wisdom, the insight that is on offer in this ancient ritual, psychedelic or otherwise? That was the question for me. And the second act, the same, but for what you call paleo-Christianity, the evidence for your suspicion that the Eucharist was originally a psychedelic sacrament. BRIAN MURARESKU: I don't-- I don't claim too heavily. So this whole water to wine thing was out there. And so the big hunt for me was trying to find some of those psychedelic bits. Get personalized recommendations, and learn where to watch across hundreds of streaming providers. And that's what I get into in detail in the book. Here is how I propose we are to proceed. So again, that's February 22. And Brian, it would be helpful for me to know whether you are more interested in questions that take up the ancient world or more that deal with this last issue, the sort of contemporary and the future. Now, I've never done them myself, but I have talked to many, many people who've had experience with psychedelics. And I think there are so many sites and excavations and so many chalices that remain to be tested. These Native American church and the UDV, both some syncretic form of Christianity. Rather, Christian beliefs were gradually incorporated into the pagan customs that already existed there. The pagan continuity hypothesis theorizes that when Christianity arrived in Greece around AD 49, it didn't suddenly replace the existing religion. So I don't write this to antagonize them or the church, the people who, again, ushered me into this discipline and into these questions. And that is that there was a pervasive religion, ancient religion, that involved psychedelic sacraments, and that that pervasive religious culture filtered into the Greek mysteries and eventually into early Christianity. So even from the very beginning, it wasn't just barley and water. So it is already happening. Find ratings and reviews for the newest movie and TV shows. I mean, this really goes to my deep skepticism. There he is. And I answer it differently every single time. What Brian labels the religion with no name. And so even within the New Testament you see little hints and clues that there was no such thing as only ordinary table wine. Because ergot is just very common. Just from reading Dioscorides and reading all the different texts, the past 12 years have absolutely transformed the way I think about wine. So Brian, welcome. When there's a clear tonal distinction, and an existing precedent for Christian modification to Pagan works, I don't see why you're resistant to the idea, and I'm curious . And what does this earliest history tell us about the earliest evidence for an ancient psychedelic religion? And did the earliest Christians inherit the same secret tradition? When you start testing, you find things. And nor do I think that you can characterize southern Italy as ground zero for the spirit of Greek mysticism, or however you put it. What is its connection to Eleusis? "@BrianMuraresku with @DocMarkPlotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More" Please enjoy! So we're going down parallel paths here, and I feel we're caught between FDA-approved therapeutics and RFRA-protected sacraments, RFRA, the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, or what becomes of these kinds of substances in any kind of legal format-- which they're not legal at the moment, some would argue. I know that that's a loaded phrase. We have an hour and a half together and I hope there will be time for Q&A and discussion. What's significant about these features for our piecing together the ancient religion with no name? I mean, so it was Greek. So Gobekli Tepe, for those who don't know, is this site in southern Turkey on the border with Syria. In my previous posts on the continuity hypothesis . Part 1 Brian C. Muraresku: The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis and the Hallucinogenic Origins of Religion - Feb 22, 2023 But we do know that something was happening. He has talked about the potential evidence for psychedelics in a Mithras liturgy. BRIAN MURARESKU: OK. But they charge Marcus specifically, not with a psychedelic Eucharist, but the use of a love potion. So I present this as proof of concept, and I heavily rely on the Gospel of John and the data from Italy because that's what was there. 8 "The winds, the sea . So again, if there were an early psychedelic sacrament that was being suppressed, I'd expect that the suppressors would talk about it. 8th century BC from the Tel Arad shrine. Now I understand and I appreciate the pharmaceutical industry's ability to distribute this as medicine for those who are looking for alternatives, alternative treatments for depression and anxiety and PTSD and addiction and end of life distress. And the one thing that unites both of those worlds in this research called the pagan continuity hypothesis, the one thing we can bet on is the sacred language of Greek. She joins me for most events and meetings. Wise not least because it is summer there, as he reminds me every time we have a Zoom meeting, which has been quite often in these past several months. So Dionysus is not the god of alcohol. But if the original Eucharist were psychedelic, or even if there were significant numbers of early Christians using psychedelics like sacrament, I would expect the representatives of orthodox, institutional Christianity to rail against it. CHARLES STANG: Brian, I want to thank you for your time. Nage ?] And she happened to find it on psilocybin. One attendee has asked, "How have religious leaders reacted so far to your book? Like in a retreat pilgrimage type center, or maybe within palliative care. So why do you think psychedelics are so significant that they might usher in a new Reformation? As a matter of fact, I think it's much more promising and much more fertile for scholarship to suggest that some of the earliest Christians may have availed themselves of a psychedelic sacrament and may have interpreted the Last Supper as some kind of invitation to open psychedelia, that mystical supper as the orthodox call it, [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]. And does it line up with the promise from John's gospel that anyone who drinks this becomes instantly immortal? The actual key that I found time and again in looking at this literature and the data is what seems to be happening here is the cultivation of a near-death experience. And another: in defending the pagan continuity hypothesis, Muraresku presumes a somewhat non-Jewish, pagan-like Jesus, while ignoring the growing body of psychedelic literature, including works by . So the mysteries of Dionysus are a bit more of a free-for-all than the mysteries of Eleusis. The universality of frontiers, however, made the hypothesis readily extendable to other parts of the globe. let's take up your invitation and move from Dionysus to early Christianity. So when you take a step back, as you well know, there was a Hellenic presence all over the ancient Mediterranean. It's arguably not the case in the third century. And maybe therein we do since the intimation of immortality. For me, that's a question, and it will yield more questions. Tim Ferriss is a self-experimenter and bestselling author, best known for The 4-Hour Workweek, which has been translated into 40+ languages. BRIAN MURARESKU: It just happens to show up. But things that sound intensely powerful. All right, so now, let's follow up with Dionysus, but let's see here. You're not confident that the pope is suddenly going to issue an encyclical. Maybe part of me is skeptical, right? Nage ?] I opened the speculation, Dr. Stang, that the Holy Grail itself could have been some kind of spiked concoction. That's the promise in John's gospel, in John 6:54-55, that I quote in the book. Now the archaeologist of that site says-- I'm quoting from your book-- "For me, the Villa Vesuvio was a small farm that was specifically designed for the production of drugs." And when Houston says something like that, it grabs the attention of a young undergrad a bit to your south in Providence, Rhode Island, who was digging into Latin and Greek and wondering what the heck this was all about. And when you speak in that way, what I hear you saying is there is something going on. But with what were they mixed, and to what effect? But by and large, no, we don't really know. Rupert Sheldrake, PhD, is a biologist and author best known for his hypothesis of morphic resonance. He decides to get people even more drunk. Maybe there's a spark of the divine within. What's different about the Dionysian mysteries, and what evidence, direct or indirect, do we have about the wine of Dionysus being psychedelic? In this hypothesis, both widely accepted and widely criticized,11 'American' was synonymous with 'North American'. And that's where oversight comes in handy. That is my dog Xena. That's staying within the field of time. But maybe you could just say something about this community in Catalonia. I would love to see these licensed, regulated, retreat centers be done in a way that is medically sound and scientifically rigorous. But Egypt seems to not really be hugely relevant to the research. Do you think that the Christians as a nascent cult adapted a highly effective psycho technology that was rattling . Again, if you're attracted to psychedelics, it's kind of an extreme thing, right? Church of the Saints Faustina and Liberata, view from the outside with the entrance enclosure, at "Sante" place, Capo di Ponte (Italy). BRIAN MURARESKU: Dr. Stang, an erudite introduction as ever. Thank you for that. But in any case, Ruck had his career, well, savaged, in some sense, by the reaction to his daring to take this hypothesis seriously, this question seriously. You become one with Christ by drinking that. And this is at a time when we're still hunting and gathering. 36:57 Drug-spiked wine . It would have parts of Greek mysticism in it, the same Greek mysteries I've spent all these years investigating, and it would have some elements of what I see in paleo-Christianity. These mysteries had at their center a sacrament called kykeon, which offered a vision of the mysteries of life and death. The fact that the Vatican sits in Rome today is not an accident, I think, is the shortest way to answer that. He's joining us from Uruguay, where he has wisely chosen to spend his pandemic isolation.